Why not incineration (aerobic) instead of pyrolysis anaerobic
Posted March 31st, 2009 by negligiblek
Please post these sources on the wiki so we can all evaluate. I haven't done much reading on this.
The point is not to have any combustion, as that is removing energy content from the products.
Email excerpt between Elloit and Marcin :
how do you all feel about using the forum for this? I tried but didn't get it to work.
I don't understand - shouldn't the pyrolysis process be anaerobic for what we are interested in doing?
thats
an interesting question. I have not seen anything discussing the
difference in composition of the two styles. have you read that one
method produces a more stable or higher quality oil? draft gassifiers
certainly produce methane, methanol and heavier tars and oils. I
haven't read of one being used to maximize oil yield, but neither have
i read of an anaerobic system used for oil either (just charcoal and
flash the gas). All my sources (including a lengthy study using an
anaerobic process) say the "oil" is thick and unwieldy, mostly asphalt
and the smaller asphalt-esque molequles. I haven't read anything on
either method (draft or anaerobic) making a "higher quality" goo.
Please post these sources on the wiki so we can all evaluate. I haven't done much reading on this.
A draft gassifier has a hearth region, where incomplete combustion is going on,
The point is not to have any combustion, as that is removing energy content from the products.
and also a large anaerobic region. because it doesn't make charcoal, i
assume it produces more oil/gas from a given quantity of pyrolized
material. perhaps the exsistance of carbon monoxide
from incomplete combustion in a draft gassifier leads to less stable
oil (as instability is related to oxygen content in oil), but the
biomass already has oxygen in the molecules to be pyrolized anyways. I
dont know what the ratio of combustion oxygen to organic oxygen is.
or how significant that factor is compared to other factors.
We shouldn't speculate, just call up a
researcher at some university to get these things answered, according
to the feedback discussion at
http://openfarmtech.org/weblog/?p=582
and earlier posts. The feedback has consistently been missing in
much of our developments. Feedback means not reinventing the wheel, and
getting to answers rapidly.
Comments
Here's a youtube spot done by a pyrolysis and incineration expert:
Jorge Emmanuel PhD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ftJyphJnYk&feature=channel
I t does a great job of showing what the difference is between incineration and pyrolysis.
Pyrolysis give us a completely different set of chemical reactions and chemical products.
Incineration is heavily regulated by the EPA: a visit by the EPA to e Farm to shutdown
our unlicensed incinerator prompted by "concerned citizens" isn't attractive.
Nor is getting the proper licensing.
Thank you for that information. I like this kind of article h0pefully there are a lot this kind to be posted. I want to hear more. yeast infection no more by linda allen
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Let's start at the beginning by defining a Conceptual/Functional Diagram for what we're doing so that others can join.
The development format is outlined here, and the Development Work is here. Let's start breaking up Development Work into separate pages that are manageable in size. It's difficult to organize this so people can follow, so any suggestions on how to do that? Plus, at this point, we should be pursuing review, and getting professional researchers involved in our work.
Marcin
I object to the use of the word incineration here. Gasification is often refered to as pyrolysis because of the lack (but not total absence) of air, and because of the condensible gases that are produced. I have never heard of gasification called incineration, which is the near complete burning of a mass.
Also, I believe it is a mistake to focus on producing "pyrolysis oil" which is a key word that excludes a large portion of destructive distillation processes. Pyrolysis oil is optimized in the fast pyrolysis process which (near as i can tell) is a mostly laboratory concept where cellulose and lignin are cut into very small pieces and are pumped quickly through a coil in a furnace and then quickly quenched. "pumping" solid material requires very fine chopping and then fluidizing the material by forcing air through it (thus the particles are suspended and can flow).
As i understand it, the goal here is to grow cellulose and then store liquid fuel from the destructive distillation of it. a draft gasifier may produce only 20% oil instead of 70% (top fast pyrolysis yield), but it is much less complicated to build/maintain/run. Also, I have not read yet of such a gasifier optimized for oil and alcohol, and methanol production could be valuable. the non condensible gas generated will have a use in steam boilers, internal combustion generators, etc.
I'll be researching methanol and tar production in gasifiers.
Incineration is a exothermic thermodynamic which uses air through out the process, regardless of how little.
Pyrolysis is an endothermic reaction in which, while there may be air present in the chamber initially, burns without air through out the process.
Endothermic and exothermic processes result in different chemical compounds.
If you wish to work on a incinerator gassifier, please contact Marcin to see if OSGV needs such an animal.
Otherwise, this is the pyrolysis forum, and all conversation about incinerator gassifiers will be removed from this forum.
thanks, Negligilblek
Here is an important diagram that shows the different conversion routes possible from biomass http://www.woodgas.com/FuelCompositionandConversiondiagram.pdf
It is a useful tool done by on of the pioneering researchers on bomass. Essentially the biomass is mapped out on a carbon -hydrogen - oxygen triangle. Then it is shown how each process be it fast pyrolysis, slow pyrolysis , gasification, steam reforming transforms the biomass.
Regarding the last users comment the labratory status of fast pyrolysis. This is not true, in Canada fast pyrolysis has been used very succesfully to convert wheat chaff, and even coal into a light crude replacement http://www.ensyn.com/
I believe the reasons for chasing pyrolysis oil as a biomass fuel source remain pretty strong.
1. Energy densification, 16X energy dense than dry hay.
2. 60-70% Oil by weight yield.
3. Ability to process wide range of biomass
The downfall most often cited is the inability to directly burn the pyroil in an IC engine. One could refine it into ethanol or diesel, but one of the real reasons pyroil seems so attractive is that we intend to use it for boiler fuel in steam engines.
All my sources (including a lengthy study using an
anaerobic process) say the "oil" is thick and unwieldy, mostly asphalt
and the smaller asphalt-esque molequles. I haven't read anything on
either method (draft or anaerobic) making a "higher quality" goo.
<a href=http://3freester.com/>3freester</a>
Can solve the above problems as well, I have training in the principal,as well as function and operation above. There are several books that you will find as good sources to expand your understanding of the matter,see Gingery Technical Books, "Reprints of WW2 Aussy Stuff" but they cover the best known simple ways to build them.
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